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	<title>Comments on: HDMI Cable Scams</title>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mack</title>
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		<dc:creator>Mack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-99485</guid>
		<description>Yes, the fluff and lies from cable vendors is junk, but it is not correct to say its just 1's and 0's down the line.  DVI/HDMI is a digital transport system, but when its over copper, its an analog world.

What no one ever points out is that the chipsets in the TVs should be using proper signal recovery techniques to basically undo all the impairments that occur after those 1's and 0's are sent down the line.  There is inter-symbol interference, reflections, jitter, skew, and differences in loss between individual conductors.  Using simple chip design techniques (i.e. most chip vendors in this market do) causes a vast majority of the problems users complain about.  

Find a TV or Projector with advanced silicon (lookup Vividreach) and you experience everything you ever thought HDMI should be.  Saw it at CES and it was unbelievable.  PS3 sending 1080p/60Hz/Deep Color over 20+ meters of thin 28AWG HDMI Type I cable with instant signal lock.  Even better was the same signal working flawlessly over 100ft of Cat5 without any boosters, electronics, repeaters, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the fluff and lies from cable vendors is junk, but it is not correct to say its just 1&#8217;s and 0&#8217;s down the line.  DVI/HDMI is a digital transport system, but when its over copper, its an analog world.</p>
<p>What no one ever points out is that the chipsets in the TVs should be using proper signal recovery techniques to basically undo all the impairments that occur after those 1&#8217;s and 0&#8217;s are sent down the line.  There is inter-symbol interference, reflections, jitter, skew, and differences in loss between individual conductors.  Using simple chip design techniques (i.e. most chip vendors in this market do) causes a vast majority of the problems users complain about.  </p>
<p>Find a TV or Projector with advanced silicon (lookup Vividreach) and you experience everything you ever thought HDMI should be.  Saw it at CES and it was unbelievable.  PS3 sending 1080p/60Hz/Deep Color over 20+ meters of thin 28AWG HDMI Type I cable with instant signal lock.  Even better was the same signal working flawlessly over 100ft of Cat5 without any boosters, electronics, repeaters, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
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		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-96764</guid>
		<description>Rick, I dunno, I think Jeff's claiming digital systems can transmit the equivalent of 0.8s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, I dunno, I think Jeff&#8217;s claiming digital systems can transmit the equivalent of 0.8s.</p>
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		<title>By: Geof F. Morris</title>
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		<dc:creator>Geof F. Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-96735</guid>
		<description>Can I just say that it's fun to watch my friends out-nerd each other?  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I just say that it&#8217;s fun to watch my friends out-nerd each other?  <img src='http://granades.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
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		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-96729</guid>
		<description>Stephen came back with pretty much exactly what I was going to say.  If they're going to sell it as HDMI, it had better meet the specifications and that should include quite a bit of margin to avoid any sort of signal integrity problems.

Assuming the margins are solid enough, I could get behind a cable that sent 0.8's instead of 1's (assuming that's a scale of the DC voltge).  That just means it uses less power and is more 'green'.  That ought to make it worth at least a few dollars more. ;)

The real error in the digital world comes from quantization (initial conversion from analog to digital).  This happens on the recording side rather than the playback side, so I guess they can't soak the consumer on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen came back with pretty much exactly what I was going to say.  If they&#8217;re going to sell it as HDMI, it had better meet the specifications and that should include quite a bit of margin to avoid any sort of signal integrity problems.</p>
<p>Assuming the margins are solid enough, I could get behind a cable that sent 0.8&#8217;s instead of 1&#8217;s (assuming that&#8217;s a scale of the DC voltge).  That just means it uses less power and is more &#8216;green&#8217;.  That ought to make it worth at least a few dollars more. <img src='http://granades.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The real error in the digital world comes from quantization (initial conversion from analog to digital).  This happens on the recording side rather than the playback side, so I guess they can&#8217;t soak the consumer on that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
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		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-96636</guid>
		<description>Sure. I completely agree with your basic premise that boutique cable vendors make meaningless or utterly false claims in order to sell us snake oil. I just had to pick on you a bit for the "0.8s" comment. :)

You make a very good point that the artifacts created by digital signal problems are in general very different from those created by analog signal problems. Anyone who has digital satellite TV can attest to the fact that when the signal gets bad, the resulting picture problems look very different than when an analog cable or over-the-air TV signal gets bad.

The funny thing? I've seen the snake oil vendors play the other side of this coin as well. I have to shake my head and sigh every time I see a company claim that their product or service has "digital quality". :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure. I completely agree with your basic premise that boutique cable vendors make meaningless or utterly false claims in order to sell us snake oil. I just had to pick on you a bit for the &#8220;0.8s&#8221; comment. <img src='http://granades.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>You make a very good point that the artifacts created by digital signal problems are in general very different from those created by analog signal problems. Anyone who has digital satellite TV can attest to the fact that when the signal gets bad, the resulting picture problems look very different than when an analog cable or over-the-air TV signal gets bad.</p>
<p>The funny thing? I&#8217;ve seen the snake oil vendors play the other side of this coin as well. I have to shake my head and sigh every time I see a company claim that their product or service has &#8220;digital quality&#8221;. <img src='http://granades.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
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		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-96627</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It gets other names in the digital world, but it’s caused by the same electrical characteristics of the cable that create what we call “distortion” in an analog signal.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But impedance mismatch and the like are expressly &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; what the cable packaging is claiming to fix. And signal issues in a digital setup like HDMI is going to show up as the picture going batshit crazy, not as it being not quite as sharp as it otherwise might be. Everything might be analog at its heart, but digital failure modes aren't like analog ones.

HDMI cables have to &lt;a href="http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#48" rel="nofollow"&gt;pass the test specification&lt;/a&gt; to get the HDMI logo. Given how much money the HDMI licensing corporation rakes in, you can bet they've got their jackboots ready to stomp on anyone who uses that logo on or claims certification for bum cables.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It gets other names in the digital world, but it’s caused by the same electrical characteristics of the cable that create what we call “distortion” in an analog signal.</p></blockquote>
<p>But impedance mismatch and the like are expressly <i>not</i> what the cable packaging is claiming to fix. And signal issues in a digital setup like HDMI is going to show up as the picture going batshit crazy, not as it being not quite as sharp as it otherwise might be. Everything might be analog at its heart, but digital failure modes aren&#8217;t like analog ones.</p>
<p>HDMI cables have to <a href="http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#48" rel="nofollow">pass the test specification</a> to get the HDMI logo. Given how much money the HDMI licensing corporation rakes in, you can bet they&#8217;ve got their jackboots ready to stomp on anyone who uses that logo on or claims certification for bum cables.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
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		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granades.com/2008/01/11/hdmi-cable-scams/#comment-96620</guid>
		<description>You know, I completely agree that boutique cables are one of the biggest scams out there. If you ever want to see the core of the crowd that buys into this, pick up a back issue from the 90's of a magazine called Stereophile... preferably one of the ones that has the "recommended components" section. The thing is, there's good info in there, but then there's also the scary buy-in and the ads. *shudder*

That being said...

&lt;blockquote&gt;Let’s start with the fact that HDMI signals are digital. The signal is a series of voltage changes indicating ones and zeros. What does it mean to “reduce signal distortion”? That cheap cables send 0.8s instead of 1s?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I &lt;em&gt;know&lt;/em&gt; you know better than this. :)

Everything is analog. &lt;em&gt;Especially&lt;/em&gt; high speed digital signals. Ask Rick what can happen to a memory signal as it travels 1-inch down a PCB trace. Prepare for the rant.

Basically, not all of that "1" gets there at the same time. Then, if there's an impedance mismatch, some of it bounces back down the cable, then back up the cable. Suddenly, a "1" might look like a "0" or vice versa. You should see what nasty stuff multiple reflections can do to a pretty digital pulse.

It gets other names in the digital world, but it's caused by the same electrical characteristics of the cable that create what we call "distortion" in an analog signal.

So... I'd probably be scared of a $2 HDMI cable. $13 in comparison to the ripoff price Monster wants sounds about right, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I completely agree that boutique cables are one of the biggest scams out there. If you ever want to see the core of the crowd that buys into this, pick up a back issue from the 90&#8217;s of a magazine called Stereophile&#8230; preferably one of the ones that has the &#8220;recommended components&#8221; section. The thing is, there&#8217;s good info in there, but then there&#8217;s also the scary buy-in and the ads. *shudder*</p>
<p>That being said&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>Let’s start with the fact that HDMI signals are digital. The signal is a series of voltage changes indicating ones and zeros. What does it mean to “reduce signal distortion”? That cheap cables send 0.8s instead of 1s?</p></blockquote>
<p>I <em>know</em> you know better than this. <img src='http://granades.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Everything is analog. <em>Especially</em> high speed digital signals. Ask Rick what can happen to a memory signal as it travels 1-inch down a PCB trace. Prepare for the rant.</p>
<p>Basically, not all of that &#8220;1&#8243; gets there at the same time. Then, if there&#8217;s an impedance mismatch, some of it bounces back down the cable, then back up the cable. Suddenly, a &#8220;1&#8243; might look like a &#8220;0&#8243; or vice versa. You should see what nasty stuff multiple reflections can do to a pretty digital pulse.</p>
<p>It gets other names in the digital world, but it&#8217;s caused by the same electrical characteristics of the cable that create what we call &#8220;distortion&#8221; in an analog signal.</p>
<p>So&#8230; I&#8217;d probably be scared of a $2 HDMI cable. $13 in comparison to the ripoff price Monster wants sounds about right, though.</p>
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